For vegetarians : Plants are living beings by any biological definition, so killing them but not killing animals is not worth much IMO.|||Quote:
For vegetarians : Plants are living beings by any biological definition, so killing them but not killing animals is not worth much IMO.
This reasoning sprouts from what is commonly known as a "Slippery Slope" fallacy. Yes, you are right, plants are living beings too, but "two wrongs don't make a right." Every life saved or spared is an accomplishment and makes a difference. Take this example: "Yeah, I'm married, but I really want to hook up with this new girl at work, which I know is wrong, but since I've cheated in the past, there is no harm in doing it again." Anyone can realize that this argument is quite seriously flawed.
Have you ever heard the story about the starfish? It goes something like this:
As a girl was walking along a shore at a beach one day, she noticed hundreds of washed up starfish--helpless, laying on the sand. Knowing that starfish need to be in water to survive, she begin picking them up, one by one, and placing the starfish back in the water. Soon there after, a guy walked by and said "You're never going to be able to save them all; What you're doing doesn't make a bit of difference." The girl then proceeded to transport another starfish back into the ocean and said "it made a difference to that one."|||thanks for the advice, Blascid.
and i wasn't trying to dog on her size because im small myself, but not as small. and thank you for the address. 
|||Quote:Humans are naturally omnivorous. Our bodies are meant to consume animal products; we can't even absorb plant B12 and our bodies don't typically produce enough of it (or the bacteria in our bodies, for you nitpickers). Unless you are very careful then protein deficiencies are easy to acquire on a vegan diet. Not to mention how gassy vegetarians tend to be.
Eat meat. It's good for you.
Why meat? B12 is in other animal products as well (dairy, eggs, etc.), and some cereal is fortified with B12. Anyway, Veganism is something I couldn't do even though I understand the rationale. I keep perfectly healthy on an ovo/lacto vegetarian diet, and have never once wanted to go back to meat.
So, yeah. Veganism. Be careful with it. Read about it, learn what nutrients are hard to get and how to get them in a safe way. Vegetarianism isn't difficult at all, but veganism is something completely different.
And meat isn't necessarily good for you. Like any other diet, it all depends on how and what you eat. I love when people say eating meat is natural for the survival of the fittest (ask them to describe the theory in any more depth and see if they can) - in the country with the highest obesity rate in the world.
EDIT: Just saw that old "plants are alive" thing. Okay. Do they have consciousness? Are they self aware? Do they feel pain? Can they care for offspring? Do they have any base level of emotion? Look how animals are treated and abused in slaughter houses and tell me it's the same thing as an apple orchard or even a dairy.
How about this: which would effect you more?
1) Some one comes into your yard and cuts down a tree
2) Some one comes into your yard and kills your pet
If you use the "plants are alive," both would be the same. But I bet they aren't.|||Quote:
EDIT: Just saw that old "plants are alive" thing. Okay. Do they have consciousness? Are they self aware? Do they feel pain? Can they care for offspring? Do they have any base level of emotion? Look how animals are treated and abused in slaughter houses and tell me it's the same thing as an apple orchard or even a dairy.
How about this: which would effect you more?
1) Some one comes into your yard and cuts down a tree
2) Some one comes into your yard and kills your pet
If you use the "plants are alive," both would be the same. But I bet they aren't.
I still don't see the relevance, for me it all goes back to the idea that plants aren't cute enough and thus less deserving of compassion, but I lack it for animals and plants and eat em all, so my opinion is only semi-relevant to vegetarians
yes, I understand the difference, and no I don't give vegetarians a hard time over the plants are alive crap because the argument about unethical treatment of livestock is valid, I only attack the need to identify all the traits that make them more similar to humans than plants are|||Quote:
As a girl was walking along a shore at a beach one day, she noticed hundreds of washed up starfish--helpless, laying on the sand. Knowing that starfish need to be in water to survive, she begin picking them up, one by one, and placing the starfish back in the water. Soon there after, a guy walked by and said "You're never going to be able to save them all; What you're doing doesn't make a bit of difference." The girl then proceeded to transport another starfish back into the ocean and said "it made a difference to that one."
I know that girl. That never happened.|||Food production in the US is so interconnected that meat production and vegetable production go hand in hand. Waste products in the production of meat go into the production of vegetables/grains by way of fertilizers. Waste products from production of vegetables turn into animal feed. If you go organic, then your fertilizers are entirely natural, AKA animal poo + rotting plant matter. These animals are most likely slaughtered and eaten as well. Sensible farming has always included raising both plants and animals to create a balanced ecosystem and maintain the land.
IMHO, vegetarianism/veganism are logical choices if picked for health or taste alone. You can eat meat and still support humane animal treatment -- i.e. eating 'organic' free-range animals eating their normal diet, not force fed corn. Personally I will continue to include meat in my diet until it is no longer economically feasible to do so...|||Quote:
some do it for compassion for the animals,
I think that was the point of the people who brought up the fact that many (most?) humans are decadent spoon-fed and sheltered primadonnas.
The only reason they can even CHOOSE to live those lifestyle choices, is because they don't have to fend for their own food. If by chance something drastic changed on this world, and the general public had to go back to fending for themselves, then almost none of them would have the luxury of denying any available food source... much less completely avoiding most of the food types they had access to.
Trust me, those same petite gentle souls would quickly revert back and would be clawing past you to break a rabbit's neck and throw it on the fire. The very few that still might not? Well, they would soon die... which is what survival of the fittest and Nature is all about.|||Quote:
IMHO, vegetarianism/veganism are logical choices if picked for health or taste alone. You can eat meat and still support humane animal treatment -- i.e. eating 'organic' free-range animals eating their normal diet, not force fed corn. Personally I will continue to include meat in my diet until it is no longer economically feasible to do so...
i know some people who do that; like, they buy the organic and free-ranged meat and swear it tastes so much better. they are def not vegetarians, but are very healthy-food eaters. example: they buy 2% milk or something (i really don't think the people im talking about buy whole milk. if it's not Soy Silk, then it's probably 2% or something), whole grain pasta and bread, ALWAYS have fresh veggies and ALWAYS cook with them, less fat products, cut soda out of their diet period (and because im a sucker for the bubbly, liquid crack, i always make sure i bring my own 20 oz. or buy one to last me a while) and a lot of junk food. they also try diet drinks like fasting juices and stuff every once in a while and they say they feel good and healthy, def energized too.
Quote:
I think that was the point of the people who brought up the fact that many (most?) humans are decadent spoon-fed and sheltered primadonnas.
The only reason they can even CHOOSE to live those lifestyle choices, is because they don't have to fend for their own food. If by chance something drastic changed on this world, and the general public had to go back to fending for themselves, then almost none of them would have the luxury of denying any available food source... much less completely avoiding most of the food types they had access to.
Trust me, those same petite gentle souls would quickly revert back and would be clawing past you to break a rabbit's neck and throw it on the fire. The very few that still might not? Well, they would soon die... which is what survival of the fittest and Nature is all about.
i love animals as much as the next vegetarian/vegan, but i NEED my meat (to the perverted scalawags reading this: don't take that out of context! hehe!
). i choose not to eat veal and lamb because i feel bad for eating a young animal. trust me, i know lamb taste delicious, but i feel bad about it. that's about as vegetarian as i get. and i know animals need to be slaughtered, but i don't want to know about how each animal is sliced and diced. guess a butcher's career is out of the question. 
i don't have it in my heart to kill anything, so i guess im screwed if that scenario does happen, Knarlfist. but maybe if i think of it as a gift from Mother Earth or something and learn to hunt, i'd be okay. btw, congrats on the 666 postings. lol!
|||Quote:i love animals as much as the next vegetarian/vegan, but i NEED my meat (to the perverted scalawags reading this: don't take that out of context! hehe!
). i choose not to eat veal and lamb because i feel bad for eating a young animal. trust me, i know lamb taste delicious, but i feel bad about it. that's about as vegetarian as i get. and i know animals need to be slaughtered, but i don't want to know about how each animal is sliced and diced. guess a butcher's career is out of the question. i don't have it in my heart to kill anything, so i guess im screwed if that scenario does happen, Knarlfist. but maybe if i think of it as a gift from Mother Earth or something and learn to hunt, i'd be okay. btw, congrats on the 666 postings. lol!
Haha, I agree with the not eating young animals. It's fortunate I don't like lamb anyways.*)
I don't eat a lot of meat. I am not very bothered with eating meat every day, so I don't. It just depends on what I'm in the mood for. Don't think eating meat is all that bad, provided you don't overdo it and spoil yourself. Always realise you're eating an animal. [always remember you're cutting up a corpse when you make a stir fry chicken...] If possible, try to get meat from animals who had a decent life and weren't tortured or inhumanely kept in order to provide you food.
What I don't get are vegetarians who
a) eat fish. God, often eating fish is even more cruel than eating meat.
b) I don't eat meat but I do eat chicken. What, chickens are vegetables?
They're not vegetarians, or if they are, they're telling porkies.
*) me and my crazy Californian friend visited the beautiful city of 's-Hertogenbosch. Walking through the medieval town center, with gorgeous old buildings, lovely streets, I was enjoying the scenary and he pointed out a restaurant with a sign outside displaying the menu "Look, they got lamb"
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